Belle’s OT Corner
Belle’s OT Corner
Play Season: Ep 4 Functional and Relational Play
Functional play is the gateway into our children exploring toys, objects for their intended purpose. This developmental milestone opens doors to deeper learning, independence, and confidence as children figure out that spoons are for eating, blocks are for building, and crayons can create beautiful marks on paper.
In this episode we dive into how to find playful moments throughout your entire day. From morning routines to bath time, cooking to cleaning up, every interaction becomes an opportunity to build these skills. The beauty lies in seeing how naturally children learn when we model without demanding, when we create environments that support their unique needs, and when we celebrate their discoveries.
The episode explores practical strategies like using your affect and body language to engage attention, modelling without expectation, and giving children space to problem-solve. These approaches honour the child's natural learning process while supporting their development. Listen to discover how small moments of playfulness can transform your child's development journey while bringing more joy and connection to your daily interactions.
As always, please do share it around with anyone that you think could benefit from it and follow me on @bellesotcorner on instagram and Facebook for more insights.
DISCLAIMER:
Whilst I will always make evert effort to share correct information as at the date of the podcast, research is constantly happening and as a profession we learn more everyday. One therapist may have a different way of doing things to another, and every child's needs are unique. By listening to this podcast, you agree not to use this podcast as medical advice to treat any medical condition in either yourself or others Consult your child's paediatrician or therapist for any recommendations for your child.
Hello everyone and welcome back to Belle's OT Corner. For those of you in England that have just come up to school holidays, I hope you guys made it, have gotten through the second term now, so we've just finished up. Uh oh, I still get these mixed up all the time. Hang on. We just finished up our spring term. Even though we're just coming into spring, it still messed with my head a little bit. But over in the UK we've just finished up spring term and we've broken up for a break. I know back home in Australia you'll be coming up to your Easter holidays really soon and I think it's the same in the US. Let me know if it's a bit different, not as great on my school calendar over in the US. So please let me know. But moral of the story is that we're getting there. We're getting time for some family time, some holidays, which I know can be great, but they can also be really quite stressful for a lot of families as well, and so just make sure that you take those moments. Take your two seconds when you can get them, take your little breaths when you get them. Go back and think about that regulation season that we did and that importance of us being regulated before we even try to help the kids regulate as well. In In saying that today's episode is all about functional play and what we mean by this weird term functional play, and so hopefully you'll come away with lots of different activities that you can give a try over the summer, over the holidays summer holidays, I wish over the holidays, as you're hanging out with your kids as well. But yeah, so today we're going to keep going with our play season. So so far we've done.
Speaker 1:Our last episode was our onlooker and parallel play. So there's bits around when kids are using those observation skills to see what's happening and start to play kind of alongside a peer, but maybe not necessarily interacting with them. Before that we were talking about our solitary and our sensory motor play. So there's really early play skills where really I don't care about anyone else in the world and I'm using my play. That's going to have lots of movement input, lots of sensory input, as I try and figure out my world and figure out how I can interact within the world as well. And so today we're going to get onto this topic of functional play.
Speaker 1:Functional play can sometimes be called kind of relational play and functional play can mean different things in different contexts, but really functional play is dependent upon where the child is at in terms of like, functional play for a baby is that sensory motor play. That is what holds function for them, and what I mean by that in terms of what holds function for them. Think back to our first play episode and if you haven't had a listen, go and have a listen, because we talked a lot about this idea that play is a child's primary occupation. Play is their work. So much of what kids do and how kids learn is through play. So really they are playing most of the day, and it might not be that they're sitting down and playing in the typical sense that we might think of when we think of play, but they're playing as they're exploring everything in their world around them, and so we really want to remember that play is so important for our children, particularly when they're younger, but even as they get older as well, and arguably play is also really important for adults as well. It just looks slightly different. We call it leisure time, we call it the things that we enjoy, but having that playfulness and that creativity and that, you know, total focus on what I'm doing and how I'm going to figure this out, and the joy that you get when you figure out something that you've been toying with in the back of your mind and you haven't quite figured it out, and it it's so interesting.
Speaker 1:I was talking to a friend the other day around play and adulthood and some of the language that we can use as adults. And you know, one bit that I use all the time is I'm toying with an idea. Well, I am, my brain is playing with the idea and I'm thinking about it, but I'm not doing anything with it yet. I'm just, I'm just having a bit of a play, having a bit of a toy toy around. Or you know, I'm setting up a new activity and I'm just, I'm just going to have a play. I'm just going to see if this works, see if it doesn't work, or it's almost this safety word that we use around. I'm not sure if this is going to work, I'm not sure what's going to happen here. So I'll just, I'll just have a play, I'll just see what happens. And it's the same when we think of our kids. They're having a play as they figure out how everything within the world works as well. So to bring that back into kind of this idea of functional play.
Speaker 1:Functional play at its core sometimes known called relational play as well is when we're looking at using toys or objects or items designed for their function, that they're designed for, so I'm playing with them the way they were designed to be played with. Now, I'm not saying that everything has to be functional play. There is a huge value in having bits of functional play and then also bits of play. That is, you know, let's break all the rules, let's not do anything the way that it's supposed to. But that real functional relational play is how can I associate these objects together? How do I understand that a comb is a comb and a block is a block and I can figure out what I do with a comb is different to what I do with a block. It's that sort of understanding of okay, what is this object, what is this toy, what is this thing, how can I use it and what can I do with it? What was its intended use?
Speaker 1:Now, if you think back to last episode where we were talking about a lot of that kind of onlooker play, a lot of what we need to be able to do our functional play is first actually being able to observe what's happening over there. What are they doing with that object? Or I'm watching mum or dad in the kitchen and they've got this spoon and they're actually not just taking the spoon and banging it on the counter all day, they're actually taking that spoon and mixing it around in that big round thing also known as as a bowl. And then we start to build these associations of okay, well, actually, when I'm sitting in my high chair or sitting on the floor and I've been given a spoon and I think it's great fun and all I want to do is bang, bang, bang, bang, bang it on the floor or on whatever is next to me, well, there's actually other things that I could do with that spoon as well, and I start to learn those through watching what other people might be doing or having the opportunities to explore and try different things with that toy as well.
Speaker 1:So, within our functional play or within our relational play, we start to see kids exploring well, what can I do with this? What is the purpose for this? But also, how does this object relate to another object? How are they different? How are they the same? Therefore, what could their purposes be? It's you know? Sort of when you see those kids and they're starting to figure out that the shoes go on their feet and then they can find mom's and dad's shoes that are a lot bigger than their shoes but they're going to put mom's and dad's shoes on their feet to walk around and, you know, look ridiculously cute. Or they start to explore, um, you know, in the kitchen and they're pulling out all the containers and they go from just pulling everything out to find everything to actually getting a lid and getting a container and maybe attempting to put them together. Or knowing that they should go together, but not quite figuring out how they should go together, but trying to put a lid on because they've seen someone else try and put a lid on. And they start to do these little bits of problem solving and start to try and figure out how things work.
Speaker 1:Now, as I was saying before, when we think of play, it's not just particularly when we think of dysfunctional play. We're not just thinking about play time in the sense of this is the time that we've picked and we're going to sit down and we're going to play together, which is hugely important, and I'm not discounting the value of play time. But I really want to challenge you to think a little bit more broadly today. So think about what play could be like in your morning routine. What are the bits of functional play that we could be doing within your morning routine? What about in bath time? What about in dressing? What about in cleaning up at the end of the day and packing things away? What about when you're outside in the garden and doing jobs? What about in cooking? So we're going to talk through some of these as different examples, but I really want you guys to think about bringing that playfulness in and actually think about this focus of well, the play in this case is the power to explore, and the power to explore within a safe environment, to try things and figure out how things go together. So, if we think about dressing, for example and I'm not saying this has to be every time but if we're thinking that kids, you know, learn best through play and also their primary occupation, what they spend most of their day doing, is play well, how can we be playful within dressing? That's going to help and foster some of these functional play skills.
Speaker 1:Things like well, okay, we've got to get. You know, we found all of our clothes and we've got them all out and I'm gonna pull them all out. I'm gonna go right, I'm gonna put my shirt on my leg and they'll go. That's a bit silly. They might laugh, they might look at you a bit funny and you go oh, it doesn't go on my leg, and you might give it to them and see where they try. What will they do with it. Are they starting to build that association that actually my shirt goes on my body and I need to put it over my head or I need to put my arms in, or is that too tricky? And they go okay, I'm going to copy what you did and put it on my leg, but actually we're going to enjoy that and enjoy the problem solving, because then we can go uh-oh, it's a bit stuck or it doesn't go there, whatever that playfulness might be around it. Or it could be, you know, with socks, or it could be with a jacket, it could be that you take a hat and you put it on your arm or your elbow and you just help them start to have that freedom to allow them to try and to see what happens.
Speaker 1:It can be a really nice one to do at bath time or shower time, where you're looking at undressing and you're like we're going to take our clothes off. What are we going to do? You can do it, you try. You know, mum, dad, we're here to help, but you try. Are you going to do your arm first? Nope, got stuck, uh-oh. You try. Maybe you have a jumper on and maybe you can show them. Well, this is how I'm gonna do it, so I'm gonna model it for you, but I'm gonna give you that safe space to play around with it, see what works, see what doesn't work, start to build up some of those relational cues around where things go and how things work, and it's fun. And then you see that it's fun because then when they do it and they figure it out, they get this big smile on their face and they kind of go hey look, I did it, I figured it out and it worked, and I figured it out for what it's supposed to be. So I wasn't just, you know, taking that step beyond. I'm not just using a shirt to play hide and seek anymore. I used a shirt the way that you use a shirt, and I put the shirt on my body the way that you do, and that feels really cool.
Speaker 1:And so then, if we think about things within you know, washing our hands, bath time, brushing our hair you know, if you're sitting there brushing your hair and you have your child next to you or you have your toddler next to you and they're kind of watching what you're doing, if you have one, give them a brush, give them your brush. Just let them look at it and play with it right after they've watched you do it. So you've done that bit of modeling and then you're just going to let them explore. They'll probably bang it on their head, might hit their head a little bit too hard. So safety, safety is always a consideration. We just want to be mindful. But they might try, they might use the wrong side and then you might go good, try, keep going. Did it work? Did it not work? Uh-oh, and then you can help when you can give them that success.
Speaker 1:Or, if they're really in that focus zone, leave them be, let them see what they come up with. You can do the same with washing hands. Right, it's time to wash our hands. What are we gonna do? Oh, we need some soap. Let's get some soap ready. Squish, squish, squish on the soap, or rub, rub, rub the soap between our hands and instead of me coming in and going quick, quick, quick, quick, quick, we've got to do it, leave them with the soap on their hands and say what are you gonna do? I'm gonna make my hands go splat. I'm going to run my hands together. We start to build these relational cues of that's what soap's for and that's how I can use soap. Now we can also use soap in 15,000 other ways as well.
Speaker 1:But thinking that sort of bigger picture of within some of our self-care activities and within some of our daily routines, there's so many bits that we can do that help build some of these relational skills and help build some of these functional play skills. You know bedtime routine you could be doing bedtime routine with your child and your child is doing bedtime routine with a teddy or a doll, and so you know you're helping your kid do the step and then they're helping their doll do the step or their teddy do the step, and we're building some of this awareness and some of these sequencing skills, things like um, you know, going outside, getting ready to go outside, getting everything that we need, having them come with you through that process. You know seeing every what else it is that we need to do. All of these opportunities are really nice spots where we can start to build some of this playfulness.
Speaker 1:Cooking is also a great one, and I think I talked about it I can't remember which episode it was in. I want to say probably in our motor skills season, but I'll talk about it a lot. Cooking is a great one because cooking can be fun, it can be messy, it can be really playful and it can also start to help to build some of those early relational understandings. Think back to the spoon example I gave you. You know we start to learn that a spoon is more than just a drumstick, that I can bang against things and make a lot of noise. I can actually use a spoon to feed myself, but I can also use a spoon to stir things. I can also use my hands to squish things and stir things together. Or I could use a fork to smash things, and so getting kids involved in these steps, that's all play.
Speaker 1:All of that counts as play for our kitties and that's, before we even think about our dedicated play time that we try and put in in the time where you're really gonna, you know, focus on what we're playing with or focus on them following their lead in play. But just, it's a really nice one to kind of reframe how we think about play and remember that we can capitalize on all of those little moments, all of those incidental moments within your day. They're all really great opportunities to help your kids start to build some of these skills as well. So, thinking about that, what do we want to be thinking about when we're doing these? So what are some of the strategies that we can do? So I'm going to chat through some strategies to support kind of these play skills, of what you can do as a parent, and then I'll talk through some play examples, not necessarily in line with our daily routines, but more around. What are some play that we can do with different objects and things, to give you guys some examples, as well as to what that would look like.
Speaker 1:But remember, at its core, when we're thinking about this type of play, we're thinking about helping our kids learn what is this thing, what is this thing supposed to be used for, and how can I do it in that way? How can I get my body and everything organized to be able to use it in the way that it was intended to be used. Now I know that goes against what I've said in other um episodes around we really want to follow their lead, and I'm not saying we don't want to follow their lead, but this is a really important natural progression through play where, if we think about it, first we figure out where our body is and what my body can do and how I can use and organize my body. Then we start to look at different things around me and I start to figure out that they're things and I can pick them up and I can do different things with these things. Said things a lot. Then we look at well, actually I've got this thing and I figured out that I can bang it. But actually what is this thing for? You know, is this block just to be dropped off my table or can I do something else with this block? And through watching other people I learned that I can build towers with these blocks. Then, once I figure out how I can use it, we can then step more in towards the kind of imaginative and pretend play side of things where we can start to explore what else can I do with it. Now that I've figured out that it can do this, what else can I do with it, and so it's not saying that they have to play with it in a certain way.
Speaker 1:So let's say your child, for example and I know I'm going on a little bit of a tangent here, I will get back to talking about some strategies in two seconds. But if your child, let's say, is playing with some cars or playing with some blocks and they're not doing it in the way that you want them to do it, that is okay too. Allowing that exploration, allowing that time is really valuable. But you might just model a different way that you can play with the car and see if they'll pick that up and follow your lead and you might make what you're doing really, really fun and exciting. So it's more fun and exciting than what they were doing throwing the cars across the room, or it might be that you need an entirely different activity.
Speaker 1:So we do want to be making sure we're following your child's lead and we're facilitating and allowing those opportunities for the your child or the kids that you work with if you're a teacher as well, but then looking at how we can use ourselves to help them start to play with a toy in a more functional way, to then help them figure out more play opportunities that they have. This is all about helping them open more and more windows of well, what else could I do with this? And before I can get to that, what else can I do with this? I need to know what this was originally or what the purpose of this toy is. So then we want to think about, if we come back to now that I've done my little tangent, what are some strategies that we can use when we think about supporting our kids as they're engaging, or supporting your kids or kids in your class or kids in your nursery or your preschool if they're starting to look at some of these kind of relational and functional play skills. So we want to make sure we have environments that support that child's focus.
Speaker 1:Now notice I didn't say a quiet, calm environment, because a quiet, calm environment might be great for some kids and might not be the supportive environment for other kids. Think back to that kind of sensory processing season that we went through. Think back to what some of those individual differences are with for the children that you're working with or for your own child, and it might be that actually the environment that supports focus for one kid is being on a swing or being outside or engaging in a play after we've just had a huge amount of rough and tumble activities, or I need to be in a really quiet corner of the house where I know what's happening and everything's really predictable, so that the house where I know what's happening and everything's really predictable, so that I can then focus on what I'm doing. It will depend on each kid and you will know from watching your kid when they're really focused and what helps them to focus. And so, just keeping that in the back of your mind, if we're going to be doing some of this tricky play and a lot of this tricky play then comes along with tricky thinking. So if we're going to have a big cognitive load, we want to make sure the environment is set up to support that, not set up to fight against that. So if I need a bit of movement as I'm doing things, that we've got that, or if I need everything to be really quiet, we can facilitate that. Now there is, you know, sometimes only so much you can do within the environment, but it's just one to be mindful of is that you're setting up that environment to set your kid up for success or set the children you're working with up for success, instead of setting them up to have to fight against something else, whilst they're really just trying to play with this toy. Looking at adult use of modeling in this area can also be really helpful, and what I mean by that is non-demand based modeling.
Speaker 1:So I'm not sitting here going right, my turn, I'm gonna do this, I put it in there, your turn. Now you can pick it up, put it in, put it in. No, instead I might sit here and have something let's say, the toy I'm thinking of is like a posting toy, so like coins through a piggy bank or something along those lines. So I might have a coin and I might go oh, I've got a coin, I can bang it, I can tap it, I can. Oh, in, it goes, ready, ready, ready, push. Oh, that was cool, I'm going to find it again and I'm going gonna go ready, ready, ready, push, and then I might give a coin to the child that I'm playing with and I might keep a second coin. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go again, I'm gonna go push, and then I might just wait, and so in that moment of modeling, I've given language around what they need to do in the sense of push, because we've got to push the coin in helping them get their body organized. We've used that bit of anticipation of ready, ready, ready to help capture that attention and show them what I'm doing and bring them into the play. And then I might just leave it and see what they do and they might have their coin and they might be turning it in their hands and so I might get my coin and turn it in my hands and then I might put it back in again.
Speaker 1:In none of this am I saying well, your turn, your turn, let's do it. I might offer do you want to have a go? But there's not the expectation that they do. I'm using myself to model how something could happen and just facilitate those opportunities for success. And so if they bring theirs over and let's say they don't line it up quickly, I'm probably going to go in there and make sure that it goes in successfully to go. Wow, you did it too. That's fantastic and we look at this within you.
Speaker 1:Any sort of play activity I just randomly pick posting, but this idea of I'm here and I'm playing alongside you and I can show you lots of cool things, but I'm not expecting you to do anything because we're figuring this out and doing this problem solving together. And that's the really nice bit of play is the problem solving and the figuring it out nine times out of ten is more powerful than the actual doing, because we want that time to look at the thing that I've got and figure out and watch what you did with that thing and look at the thing in my hand and go, I might be able to do that too, and then have that go and feel that, wow, that worked, that was really cool. That's the really powerful part with all of this is allowing that sort of time and allowing that problem solving for our kids, or for the children that you're working with, to be able to facilitate that little bit more independence as they work within some of these play skills as well. So they're kind of the two big strategies that I want you to be thinking about, as you're three, sorry using your affect in terms of helping build that anticipation, in terms of using your body and your voice to kind of show what you're doing, that really using your modeling without expectations, and thinking about the environment that you're playing in. Is this going to be helpful for our thinking and our learning or is this going to make our thinking and our learning really quite tricky? So if you think about that as well just quickly linking back to some of the play within our self-care that I was talking about you can do the same things.
Speaker 1:You can be that really silly playfulness if you're brushing hair or if you're washing hair or even if you're washing their bodies and it's bath time. You know you might take the, take the soap scrubber and go I'm gonna wash your leg and wash their arm instead and go they go. Oh, that wasn't my leg, that was silly. And then the drying our body. We can do the same thing and you can use that effect. You can use a bit of modeling. You know, brushing my teeth, I can model how I'm brushing my teeth and you know you can have your child next to you and they might just have a toothbrush and be looking at it and kind of watching you. And I'm not telling you that you have to brush your teeth because this is mum's time to brush her teeth or dad's time to brush his teeth, and then in a second it's going to be their time to brush their teeth, but whilst you're doing yours instead of it being kid first. If you flip it and you show first and then help, you just set up those opportunities for them to have a go themselves.
Speaker 1:So then, if we're thinking about play in terms of what we would typically think of as play, in terms of we've got some time, we're going to sit down and we're going to have a play what would that sort of functional play look like there? So I'm just going to talk through a couple different examples. Really, it can be anything. It truly, truly, truly can be anything where the focus is on figuring out what this is and how can I use it in the way that it was kind of meant to be used. So, if we think about something as simple as crayons Crayons, initially, when you first give someone crayons, oh gosh, what have I seen?
Speaker 1:I've seen crayons go, you know, try to go in mouths, up noses, get thrown, get broken, get rolled, all of this sort of early exploration stuff. And then, as we move more into the functional play, it's that understanding of oh, actually, this crayon can make a mark, and then we might make a mark on walls or we might make a mark on a whole bunch of different things, and then we learn that actually we should probably make marks on paper and we can do some scribbles together on paper and then we learn to go just from like a one-two mark into I can do lots of marks and I can build to coloring. And we do all of this through watching someone else, through modeling, through having that time to explore all the other things that a crayon can do. But then watching what someone else is doing with a crayon and going, hey, I want to give that a go too.
Speaker 1:Something like, um, cars or trains would be, when we're looking at, okay, so moving a car or a train from again, typically something I can throw or something I can spin the wheels on, or something that you know can crash into or bang against something else to. Hey, I can drive this on the ground and I can go fast and I can go slow and I can make it start and I can make it stop and I can, you know, chase another car. Or I could have a line on the floor and I could make this car follow that line on the floor and someone else could follow that line. Or I could build a line on the floor and I could make this car follow that line on the floor and someone else could follow that line, or I could build a racetrack, or I could build a train track and I can take the trains around the train track. And then we start to see that more functional play and understand the relation of the train or the car with a line and going. I can put those together to drive along the road, or I can take this train and I can build the tracks and I can understand that the train can then go on the tracks to drive around the tracks.
Speaker 1:And again, it's this same sort of thinking and problem solving that we help our kids go through to figure out, well, what is this and how can I play with it. And we do it all through watching and modeling and having a go and getting it wrong. You know, putting the train on upside down and going, oh, that didn't work, it's not going to drive if it's upside down, we need the wheels down. And then it drives Through, trying to balance and stack up cars and going well, they're not balancing and stacking very well, but hey, they drive really well, so let's drive them. And even through things like watching cars outside and going, hey, those cars drive and move, and my little toy car can drive and move too. All of those bits and pieces all kind of help our kids figure out what these kind of next steps are within play.
Speaker 1:Things with a ball are all of our like kicking, building up to kicking towards a target or kicking towards a person. Instead of just kicking a ball and understanding that, hey, I can kick it a short distance, I can kick it really far, throwing a ball, catching a ball, rolling a ball all of that instead of just like I pushed it and something happened. Well, I can push it softly and it goes a little way, or I can push it really hard and I can see that you're over there playing with me, so if I push it that way towards you, we can keep playing. And then you start to build some of that sort of problem solving and bits and pieces that come in with that as well. Same with, like blocks or lego moving from just kind of having someone help me build a block tower to just crash it down and really enjoying the crash. And I'm not saying the crash is not fun, the crash is almost always fun. But actually then looking at, well, actually I can build a tower just to have a tower and I can work really hard to make this tower. I can put lego blocks together to make something, instead of just having Lego blocks and clapping them together and starting to do some of that sort of understanding of how these things in my world around me work and what can I do with them and what do other people do with them. So what can I do with them too?
Speaker 1:Now there are thousands upon thousands, upon thousands of different relational and functional play activities that you can do and, honestly, it's sky's the limit, because it comes down to your creativity and really looking at where you can get your kids engaged with you and what you're doing. And I think if there's one big takeaway I want you guys to have from the episode today is really think about and keep in the forefront of your minds that play is what kids do for work. All the hours that you spend at work every week, they're the hours that kids spend playing. And so look at what you're doing, naturally within your time already, and how we can make that playful. Thinking about how we can help build that independence and to get that independence, we need some. We can help build that independence and to get that independence, we need some of these problem solving bits.
Speaker 1:And this is where, through play, is where kids start to learn that really, those really early problem solving skills to figure out well, what is this and how can I use it. And allowing all that time for kids to watch what you're doing, be explicit as you talk about what you're doing. You know, brushing your teeth, you might have a brushing the teeth song that goes up and down and round and round, and up and down and round and round, so they start to learn that somehow this brush needs to go up and down and round and round and that's how it works. All of those opportunities can help your kids start to develop and feel really confident as they're starting to explore these play skills and then feel really proud of themselves and have that sense of accomplishment when it works for them. And ultimately, that's what we want. We want these kids to be able to go oh well, I worked really hard and I thought a lot and I figured something out and, hey, it worked. It did the thing that I wanted it to do and that feels fantastic. So that is our little summary on functional play.
Speaker 1:I know we didn't talk all that much around the social side of play this episode. We will get into that when we chat next episode and we talk about some of our associative play, some of our symbolic play, um, and some of our what's the one we're going to be doing? Associative, socio-dynamic. Socio-dynamic associative play and symbolic play are some of the ones that we'll be chatting about next episode, but really, before we could dig into those, I felt that it'd be helpful to have this really deep understanding of why we want to relate different objects to each other, because once I can relate different objects and have that understanding of how objects work, I can then understand how I can interact with these objects, with somebody else, and then later move into stages of pretend playing things as well, which we'll get into next episode. But that's all for now.
Speaker 1:Guys, as always, please, if you could rate and review the podcast, it makes a world of difference on my end. If you could rate and review the podcast, it makes a world of difference on my end. If you could share it around with anyone that you think might enjoy listening. Please do. And if you have any questions, feel free to send me a message on Instagram or my email at bellsotcorner at gmailcom. Other ways, guys, I will catch you next time. Have a fantastic holidays. Have, and well, have a fantastic holidays for those of us that are on holidays and for those of you that are almost there on holidays. You guys are almost there, you've got this and we'll chat soon. Bye, thank you you.